Amber Listserv / blue
Info_BlueAmber
info at blueamber.com
Fri May 9 08:51:13 EDT 2008
Let me mention that he himself cuts them an polishes with diamond paste.
I will place more of his jewels on the gallery soon. Keep checking!
Enjoy!
Hermann
----- Original Message -----
From: Info_BlueAmber
To: TOM BUCKLEY ; JOHN FUDALA
Cc: ADAM SPIEGEL ; amberlistserv
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
touché. It does seem that in Central America, the Olmec civilization was mining amber around 3000 B.C. when we Europeans were still hanging from the trees. I heard that there are legends and traditions in Mexico that mention the use of amber in adorning, consuming and using it for stress reduction as a natural remedy. It is just less know by us from the Old World who in snobistic way still seem to think that we are the best and have the right to look down on others.
Bu the way, a Japanese customer of mine takes beautiful pictures of amber, you might want to check the gallery.
http://www.ambarazul.com/gallery/akira/
Hermann
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM BUCKLEY
To: JOHN FUDALA
Cc: ADAM SPIEGEL ; amberlistserv
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
John,
By attempting to standardize the language of fossil resins no ill intent is being directed at Baltic amber. It's true that all ambers have their own distinctive chemical structure, age, and other properties....but to say that only Baltic should be called "amber" is pretentious. It is true that the use of amber in the Baltic Region is steeped in much well documented history, and I respect that. We cannot, however, ignore the fact that, regardless of its origin, it is just fossilized resin.Nothing more, nothing less. Although much less is known about its history, amber was being used for jewelry and such by the Aztecs and Mayans when the peoples of the Baltic Region were still quite uncivilized.
I've only been an amberfile for a few years and don't have anywhere near your knowledge and experience, but I've already accepted as reasonable Adam's definition of amber .... "fossilized resin resistant to organic solvents". It has nothing to do with age or origin and I view anything else as an exercise in semantics.
No offense is intended and I hope none is taken.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN FUDALA
To: TOM BUCKLEY
Cc: ADAM SPIEGEL ; amberlistserv
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
Tom,
couple of years ago a very large and respected designer and dealer of amber jewellery lost the Amber Association's certificate of recommendation for doing just that.
He displayed unusually greenish pieces. When asked, he stated that this is amber. But Baltic amber does not come in such color shade! Than he claimed that this is real amber from Colombia. But Colombia does not have amber (at least not verified and studied) but the famous copal! THAN, he stated that thru unique and innovative technology they aged copal so now it can be called amber. That was it. Don't go down that road;)))
Plus, some scientists were or are still claiming that the only difference in fossil resins is their degree of polymerisation. Hence Dominican amber will turn into Baltic amber with time just as Baltic amber has turned into Romanite and Burmite.'
Personally I think this is a bunch of baloney. While the link between Baltic amber and Rumenite or Birmite is intriguing, it surely can not be applied to all fossil resins.
They have different origins, not just different times of creation. Hence their properties vary. And because of their unique chemical compositions it does matter which one is used for health or beauty purposes. Baltic amber is known (well established facts) to have these positive properties, other fossil resins are a big question mark. They may or may not be harmful- we just don't know! Just another reason why, in my opinion, if it just says "amber" it should mean Baltic amber. Other fossil resins should have their origin added: Oise amber, Burmese amber, Dominican amber, Borneo amber, etc.
Like Adam said: knowledge is power!
On 5/8/08, TOM BUCKLEY <tbuck22 at optonline.net> wrote:
Adam,
Your insights are much appreciated. I've always believed that amber is determined by it's degree of polymerization, not it's location. There can be very old copal and very young amber. What is needed are some experiments with accelerated aging of resin into amber. Possibly extreme pressure and heat would do the trick.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: ADAM SPIEGEL
To: amberlistserv
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
This whole thing is getting out of hand. Amber is plant resin which has polymerized enough so that it is not severely attacked when in contact with organic solvents. Period. It doesnt matter whether it is a succinite or a retinite or some other chemical composition.
Natural Baltic amber is available if one desires it. But it is true that most of the Baltic amber sold commercially, at least in the US, has been treated in various ways. Most of these treatments have been used in Europe for hundreds of years, so whether it is a byproduct of the modern commercial world is doubtful. My issue is more with ambroids, painting amber on the back to make it look green, and other "ambers" which are clearly made to deceive. And of course plastics and copals sold as amber.
Every show I do I have a small display with amber, copal, glass and plastics, with the sign "How do you tell if it is amber?". I spend many hours explaining things to people. And giving them simple tests to perform (hot needle and then organic solvents). Most people are curious and want to know. Knowledge is power.
One issue I have with Hermann is his statements which seem to indicate that if the amber fluoresces blue in UV light, then it is blue amber. Maybe I am misunderstanding his remarks, but many colors of amber fluoresce in UV light, not only blue amber. In my opinion, it is only blue, or green for that matter, if it shows the color in natural sunlight.
As for dating amber, isnt it true that the dating is usually done by dating the fossils and sediments in which the amber is found? It is highly possible that the amber is one age and then was deposited into a geologic formation which came later. In other words, resin turns into amber, then is washed into a sandy beach, which later turns into sandstone. Any fossils in the sandstone which were contemporaneous with the sand would be later in age than the already formed amber which was deposited there. So unless the dating is done directly from the amber, the best we can hope for is educated speculation.
Adam Spiegel
TOM BUCKLEY <tbuck22 at optonline.net> wrote:
Very well said Hermann.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: Info_BlueAmber
To: JOHN FUDALA
Cc: TOM BUCKLEY ; The Edgars ; amber at ambericawest.com ; Weitschat. Wolfgang
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
Here we go again... (now it's my time to roll eyes...in amusement)
But, I knew that my last comment about the age would stir up some feelings.
John, let's be honest, some Amber is considered to be up to 345,000,000 years old (Northumberland USA). Compared with this, both, Dominican and Baltic amber are "babies" and have no reason to be dickering over a few million years here and there. But this information about 18 mio years needs some clarification.
Now, Weitschat is right up to a certain degree. But there is amber from different time periods in the Dominican Republic. There is even Copal as you make us aware. Therefore, I have to be very careful when we buy. The younger amber from the South is too soft. (see Dominican Amber mines: http://ambarazul.com/wordpress/2006/09/ )The youngest times suggested are 15-20 million years, based on foraminifera fossils, while the oldest proposed are 30-45 million years, based on coccolith fossils.
Who is the guru?
Wolfgang Weitschat? 15 - 20 Mio as you say, but also 25 mio http://www.g-o.de/dossier-detail-176-6.html
Garry Platt? http://www.gplatt.demon.co.uk/dominica.htm 30-40 million years old
Guenther Bechly? http://www.bernstein.naturkundemuseum-bw.de/odonata/amber.htm up to 45 mio
George Poinar?: The Amber Forest: A Reconstruction of a Vanished World: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s6548.html up to 45 million
anyone else? lecture at the University of Cologne: http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/geography/243/ambdepos.html "They both are of tertiary age, up to 40 mio"
(Some scientist even change their opinion the older they get themselves.)
Surely, there are many different theories and everyone has his favorite. See: Blue Amber Blog
We Dig Mother Earth At Any Age http://ambarazul.com/wordpress/2006/09/ and
Dating A Fossil: Always Flatter — You don't look a day over 20 million! http://ambarazul.com/wordpress/2005/11/page/8/
There is no doubt, natural Amber from the Baltic countries was and is beautiful and extraordinary, full of folklore and history. It still has the fame of the mystic, sacred material of ancient times that carries on. There definitely are still many craftsmen in Baltic countries who keep up this old, honorable tradition. But, Alas!, natural Baltic amber in it's original form is not the rule today on a world market, where in these modern times everything has become a matter of price, competition and publicity. As a result, what you often find these days is an industrialized product for the masses and most people are not aware of what they are really buying. Many times even the seller, the jeweler does not have enough knowledge of the product.
The Amber industry in some of the Baltic countries is heavy industry, feeding many thousands of people and therefore the marketing has to be very powerful. So powerful that they are able to influence public opinion. "We are better, we are older, we have succinic acid (does it matter? http://www.natmus.dk/cons/reports/2002/amber/amber.pdf ) etc. The others are not even worth to be called "amber" (from "ambar gris" = Arabic for Sperm whale puke)."
This is what I am against. But I am the underdog, I know. So, my dear Polish friends, please give us some air and some credit! Let us live, too. You are already making enough money. No need to put us or the Mexicans down with slogans like "Only Baltic amber is REAL amber." (Want some references where they state this?)
And do to your beautiful "real" amber whatever you please to do to keep the ignorant world market happy.
Hermann
PS: Wolfgang, hoffe Du hast eine Chance das zu lesen. Eigentlich muessten Dir die Ohren klingeln.
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN FUDALA
To: Info_BlueAmber
Cc: TOM BUCKLEY ; The Edgars ; amber at ambericawest.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
Hi Hermann;)))
I hope you did not take any offense, because none was intended.
It is just that repeating certain slogans that are negative and very nonspecific is not good, sort of a negative campaign- you of all people do not need it in my opinion. Blue Dominican amber is gorgeous and unique, all natural fossil resin that deserves all the attention it gets.
You mention about Dominican amber being 40* million years old.
The article written by MALCOLM W. BROWNE mentions a lot of names and ages- very easy to get lost in thought train about what is it talking about, in any given part of it. Clearly not his area of expertise.
Last year at Amberif's science seminar dr Weitschat gave a lecture about Dominican amber in which he presented exhausting geological evidence of the deposits being 18 million years old. I am rather surprised you are not aware of it.
John
On 5/7/08, Info_BlueAmber <info at blueamber.com> wrote:
Dear John (some letters start like this....;))
You are right about the fake amber and plastic. And I try to help making the public aware of this. Just got an answer from a Chinese company to a message I wrote them. See below a part of the correspondence after I had asked them whether they would give me a certificate for the amber they offer. ;)
In behalf of my little niche: There are only about 150 - 200 kilos of good blue amber per year available. Nothing to brag about, you're right. Nothing to make me or anyone rich either. But, we are not looking for quantity. Just trying to keep up quality and defending 100 % natural amber the way it comes from the mine. Maybe I am a puritan. But maybe my case was lost before it even started, when in the first century they boiled Baltic amber "in the fat of a suckling pig". ( http://www.amberwholesale.com/colors.html ) Not much else that I can say in my defense. Therefore, no offense given and none taken. Just a different viewpoint.
And copal? Not long ago, I received inquiries from Poland (!) for copal, Colombian or from elsewhere. Large quantities, they say... wonder what they're up to....'nuff said.
But, if you know of someone who would be interested in purchasing all the other colors we have here, good old amber from trusted mines (up to 40 mio years old, just like Baltic amber *) hey, let me know. Thanks in advance. Here we say: "Firemen in action don't step on eachother's hoses."
kind regards,
Hermann
*compare http://www.gplatt.demon.co.uk/baltic.htm and http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9E0CE2DD123BF936A1575AC0A964958260 )
..................................
Dear Mr. Hermann,
Thank you for your email. Amber is all synthetic.We have largest catalog of Jewlery in the world. Prices are on our websites,We have 3 websites and over 5000's of products online.You can mail us your order from our websites....
................................
Dear Sir
Thank you for your frank and honest explanation. I was just wondering because of the price.
For your understanding: There is no synthetic amber. There might be a synthetic resin, but no synthetic amber. Maybe in Chinese. To check the meaning of the English word "amber" maybe you want to consult http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber
Please allow me a suggestion: don't call it amber. It will confound the customer and harm your and Chinese credibility on the market. At least, make sure that customers are aware of the fact that it is not amber but synthetic resin, resembling amber. Also, your customers might be liable for a legal demand or get sued, if they sell it as "amber".
Thank you for taking this into consideration for your and your customer's protection.
Regards,
Hermann K. Dittrich
AmbarAzul, LLC
http://www.blueamber.com
Answer:
May 06 2008 19:02:39 -0700
THANK YOU WE ALWAYS TELLS OUR CUSTOMERS ( WHILE GENERATING THE ORDER) THIS THING THAT IT IS SYNTHETIC AMBER THAT'S IS I THINK SUFFICENT FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND AND THEY DO UNDERSTAND.
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN FUDALA
To: Info_BlueAmber
Cc: TOM BUCKLEY ; The Edgars ; amber at ambericawest.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
Here we go again... <roll eyes>
It is easy to say things that make you seem special. But it is not hard to be special when you are in a specialty niche market. How much blue amber do you sell in a year?
One kilo? Ten kilo? Twenty? Even if it is hundreds of kilos it is peanuts with the volume of Baltic amber used in jewellery, yet you have to buy lots of mixed quality rough sometimes.
If Poland alone uses over 200 tonnes of Baltic amber per year- don't you think they are, at least sometimes, forced to buy rough of mixed quality?
Hats off to people who know how to use this stuff and make of it what the market demands.
Yes, what the marked demands. There are buyers who will pay for natural beauties, and there are buyers who ask for spangles and mixed colors. It would be silly not to offer what sells.
As for fakes and forgeries- that is a whole another subject. Than again, copal is offered all over Dominican Republic and buyers have to be careful too.
There is no conspiracy to sell mediocre quality stuff, the Amber Association and World Council are not creating sweet sounding cover-up words for it. This is huge business where fortunes are made. What these organizations are trying to do is to somehow tame and organize this mess so consumers will be sure what they are buying. And it is not easy in a World where every one and their cousins are trying to sell "amber" and "amber" products.
What is "amber" in this global World? Should anything made with "amber" be allowed in the market?
Thirty or forty years ago amber meant amber- it came from Europe. Amber jewellery was nice and good for you to wear. Amber tinctures or medicines contained amber. The stuff from Russia or Poland that was used for centuries or thousands of years.
Today?
Today the term "amber" has lost its meaning. Anybody trying to sell plastic or copal calls it amber.
Any other fossil resin gets called "amber" too. While with jewellery one might just loose some money, with medicinal or beauty products the risks are higher.
Like you said, it is not easy to please everyone. Clients burned once, may never come back. It's a big task that these two organisations have on their agenda. Very important one.
On 5/7/08, Info_BlueAmber <info at blueamber.com> wrote:
Thanks, Tom. But it isn't easy.
Many times, I just have to swallow some of the lower quality I have to buy to get the good stones. And since we do not do any "enhancing" (what they elegantly) call it, I have some buckets of lower quality I have to sell for less in order not to loose my good name in the blue amber business.
Hermann
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM BUCKLEY
To: Info_BlueAmber ; The Edgars ; amber at ambericawest.com
Cc: amber group
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
Hermann,
You should be very proud of those comments. In today's business world I fear that you are one of the exceptions. Well done !
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: Info_BlueAmber
To: TOM BUCKLEY ; The Edgars ; amber at ambericawest.com
Cc: amber group
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
Of course, Tom, to keep everybody happy is almost impossible. We all know that.
But we do our best to merrit our customers' sincere commendations. And we seem to be succeeding.
Please read below examples of spontaneous reactions.
Hi,
the packet arrived today in the morning. What can I say? Simply beautiful!!! A lot better than the photos!!! I'm very happy.
Thanks a lot for all your help and all your courtesy,
A., Italy
Hello, I have received the stone and I must say that the picture did not make justice to it.
It is superb! I am fully satisfied.
Best Wishes
R. G. Italy
Dear H.
Just got home ... it was sitting a the door and have just "strung" them together to see what they look like The colour is superb - so different from the Baltic Amber that I have. I didn't mention that I'm a bit of an amber fan with lots of pieces in various colours. I can make it into a very nice bracelet - but it will need "padding out" with a couple of gold beads. I don't suppose you would consider another order? As I said I can make do with these ones, but some more would be even better
With many, many thanks
J.D. Australia
Dear H.
I have received the parcel yesterday and what can I say as usual it's beautiful.
When you know some one very far from you and there is a strong trust between you this means friendship, I'm really like to deal with you because you are honest, nice , clear , advisable and have very good product ( Amber). So it's normal to continue business with you till to date which have been started from 2005. 2 years of trust 2 years of satisfaction 2 years of friendship 2 years of good business 2 years of having the most great specimen in blue amber and other colors.
We have to enjoy life and the beautiful gifts from the creator (God) like health, brain and amber :).
Thank you H. for every thing.
H.S.A Qatar
and so on....
Check out our complete customer feedback on that: http://www.ambarazul.com/customers_comments.php
Hermann
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM BUCKLEY
To: The Edgars ; amber at ambericawest.com
Cc: amber group
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Amber Listserv / blue
As I'm sure you'll agree.....It's difficult to always get the blue color to appear rich and vibrant. I'd be willing to bet that many people who buy blue amber from a photograph, and really don't understand where the color comes from, are disappointed when the piece arrives in the mail.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: The Edgars
To: amber at ambericawest.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:10 AM
Subject: Amber Listserv / blue
hey tom
I would agree if you cut blues on the right angle to the matrix they can work out good
here is a example
or if you want them in jewelry you could always mount them on black
w
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